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Thread: REAR SHOCK

  1. #1
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    Please do not post on this thread as this is to be a sticky (in progress) for TW rear shock upgrades.......... Thanks, gerry



    ================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ================================



    This is not intended to be a tutorial with an A to Z instruction sheet. You will not be afforded the 'luxury' of upgrading your TW's rear suspension without some degree of anxiety... A few hard working members of 'this' forum have spent "countless" hours chronicling their efforts...



    My purpose is to compile the hard work of others, in order to make it far less arduous for those that follow. I am of the opinion that 'all' the needed information is here. Surely, you will need to read this many times as to set the best path for 'your suspension upgrade.'



    It seems TW owners tend to be very 'cost conscious'. You will likely be inclined to seek out used components. Once again READ. Know the perameters that have produced results, ask the 'right' questions. Do not be affraid to try other shocks should they fall within the 'standards' outlined.



    As a general rule of thumb:



    1) Thicker springs will be stiffer than thinner springs. The stock TW spring is 12mm.

    2) The stock shock, eye to eye is 13". Should you go LONGER or SHORTER the difference will have (about) 3X the impact on your seat height. Get a 12" shock, and your seat (R. wheel to fender) height will be 3" less.

    3) Quad springs are an option. Rears will likely be the most appropriate.

    4) Donor machines that connect their shocks to swingarms via 'linkage' may present addition concerns regarding spring compression rates.

    5) Should you be inclined to "mix spring A with shock body X" be advised; shock body travel and spring travel are NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME. If the match is off, and you don't ride with that in mind, one might bind/jam before the other. In other words, your spine will cushion that hard hit and you might end up in a wheelchair. ALL MODS INCLUDE RISKS...... THINK, AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK..
    Take care my Friend.........

  2. #2
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    page 2j



    (Johanjos; Yamaha R6 shock modded to TW swingarm)



    (V-Star & Stock TW)



    (V-Star body & Modded Banshee body W/V-Star spring. Note welded bracket to make V-Star same length as TW unit)



    (PULLER turned into coil 'compressor)



    (Compressing prior to releasing)



    (Brock's Blaster retrofit)



    (Catamount's nicely rebuilt TW with Blaster R. Shock)



    (davedyno; Setting atop re-sprung Banshee shock)



    (mrgizmow; Resting upon a re-sprung Banshee shock)
    Take care my Friend.........

  3. #3
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    In my opinion, this is what makes any forum, a GREAT forum. Members willing to spend the time (lots) to contribute to others. Lizrdbrth pretty much did all the home work for us.... "Study this, as it will give you all you need to know" I will try to provide some insight and additional explanation (not much is needed).





    Some examples of shocks, springs, etc. to illustrate some of the factors involved when making rear suspension mods:









    Specs on shocks pictured above, bottom to top, by length:





    TW200--- Non-adjustable. Eye-to-eye length, 13 3/16". Main shaft diameter,12mm. Travel to bumpstop, 1 3/16". Spring installed height, 7 1/4". Spring free length, 7 1/2". Progressive spring. Wire diameter 12mm (approx.), Bottom eye 12mm, unbushed,no seals. Top eye 12mm, rubber bushing, phenolic seals.



    Comments: Adds no ride height. Adequate for most riders. Progressive spring a problem over the rough stuff as the "hit" comes too early in the stroke, causing "pogo-ing" and loss of control. Could easily be rectified with a proper spring. Least amount of factory-limited travel.



    BANSHEE---Rear ATV shock. Reservoir type.Preload, rebound, compression adjustable. Eye-to-eye length, 13 7/8". Main shaft diameter, 14mm. Trvel to bumpstop, 2 3/4"(*) Spring installed height, 9" (midpoint of preload). Spring free length, 9 1/2". Straight-wound spring (non-progressive). Wire size, 10mm. Bottom eye, 12mm, Heim type. Top eye, 12mm, Heim type.



    Comments: Bolt-on. Increases curb height (unloaded)but actually decreases ride height once loaded. . Sealed side plates and Heim-type bushings, both ends. Spring is spaghetti, intended for use with a linkage. Shock must be installed upside down to fit TW. Must be shimmed to center it in TW mounts. Close clearances beneath reservoir, may require some grinding to clear swingarm mounts. Hands down the best starting point of the 3 in terms of quality and adjustability for the experimenter. Needs a real spring. Nearly twice the available factory-limited travel compared to stock shock.



    BLASTER---Rear ATV shock. Shaft-mounted jam nut style preload adjustment only. Eye-to-eye length, 15". Main shaft diameter, 12mm. Travel to bumpstop 1 7/8"(*) Progressive spring. Spring installed height, 9 1/4". Spring free length, 9 3/4". Wire size, 11mm. Bottom eye, 12mm, rubber bushing, no seals. Top eye, 14mm, rubber bushing, no seals.



    Comments: Nosebleed suspension height increase. May cause interference between rear brake rod and passenger pegs. Drastically affects trail, may require taller front end, depending on intended use. Upper bushing requires sleeving to use TW mounting bolt. Despite its length, factory-limited travel only midway between stock shock and Banshee. Potentially the best ride quality across the board of the 3 (in stock form) due to spring design, but this spring may be too soft intitially when used with restricted travel.



    Newbies need to understand that a 2" longer shock does not result in a 2" taller bike. Rather, it results in a 5"-6" taller bike, but only in the rear (swingarm 'leverage ratio' @ 3/1 davedyno) . This shortens your wheelbase and brings your front forks more nearly vertical, which among other things can result in twitchy handling and poor impact absorption up front. Everthang affects some other thang.





    Myth of Long Travel, 101:



    Resized to 94% (was 1024 x 768) - Click image to enlarge



    Same 3 shocks, springs removed and arranged by available travel. TW left, Blaster center, Banshee right.



    The shiny part of the rod determines travel. Travel is limited by the rubber "snubbers" or bumpstops on the top part of the shaft.



    Before you get all gah-gah over the Banshee shock on the basis of travel, you need to realize that you can't use all that travel on a TW. Ideally you would use a new snubber on it to limit it to just slightly more travel than stock. Otherwise you would shred your tire on your subframe (or worse) in a hard hit (coil binding: BenPerry/Qwerty). The only shock of these 3 that can possibly use most of its available travel when mounted on a TW is the Blaster, due to its length. But then you'd have to deal with an extra 5 inches of seat height in the bargain. Everthang affects some other thang.



    Springs explained, sorta:



    Resized to 94% (was 1024 x 768) - Click image to enlarge



    Top view of the 3 springs, arranged by wire diameter. Approximate coil ID 2.25" (davedyno)



    Banshee left, Blaster center, TW right. roughly 10, 11 and 12mm's, respectively. It's kinda hard to tell the differences in the pic. Generally speaking, the fatter the wire, the stiffer the spring, and all things being equal a short spring will be stiffer than a longer one. Therefore the TW spring, being both shorter and of thicker wire is hugely stiffer than the other two. Therefore you would think that the Blaster shock would be the next stiffest of the 3. But not neccessarily so...



    Resized to 94% (was 1024 x 768) - Click image to enlarge



    Side view, same 3 springs. The Banshee is a straight-wound spring. All the coils are an equal distance apart. That means that it has a mostly linear action as it compresses. In other words if it's too weak it will probably remain too weak throughout its stroke, and if it's too stiff that will also be somewhat linear. Get it just right and you're golden.



    The Blaster is a PROGRESSIVE-WOUND spring. That means that the coils which are closest together are weaker than the ones that are wider apart. These coils will compress first, giving you a plush ride initially, then the bigger coils will kick in as your suspension compresses. This spring is actually weaker than the Banshee spring until you get into the "meat" of the coils, even though it's made of thicker wire.



    The TW spring works the same way. The transisition occurs more abruptly between "off" and "on", but it gets it all done within the range of wheel travel of a stock TW. The longer spring might run out of wheel travel before it reaches the sweet spot, unless you could preload it, as with the Banshee shock body, and even then it might not have enough room. So a straight rate spring might be the best soluion here.



    None of this applies to using the Blaster spring on the Blaster body. It has plenty of room to use most of the spring, but there's that seat height thing again.



    I'll edit as we go, with a better pic, etc. If someone has the same info on the R6 or some other shock or spring that they've used, pass it along. Try to include what was required to install it.



    Newbies need to understand that a 2" longer shock does not result in a 2" taller bike. Rather, it results in a 5"-6" taller bike, but only in the rear. This shortens your wheelbase and brings your front forks more nearly vertical, which among other things can result in twitchy handling and poor impact absorption up front. Everthang affects some other thang.





    Comments are mine, and need not appear in the sticky. These are shocks I have personally fitted to a TW without modifying the shocks in any way. They're intended to inform and promote thought BEFORE you make that eBay purchase. (lizrdbrth)



    Suspension modification is serious. If it ain't broke for you, don't fix it, or at least be honest with yourself about your skill level and understanding of the subject and postpone any mods until you're a little better informed.
    Take care my Friend.........

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  6. #5
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    Should you have comments, concerns or ideas, please do not post them in this thread. Instead, PM me or E-mail me and I will get back to you. Have a GREAT HOLIDAY...........


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many bits of information and pictures are lost or so hard to source as to make a search very difficult. Having been a forum member for a few years I taxed my marginal memory and Googled some of the "standout" members; davedyno, jefmtbkr, rodrey, brock, and catamount. Within the posts of these members, I was able gleen information posted by johanjos, jonnyblaze and many more that offered additional insights.



    My research suggested that perhaps jefmtbkr spent the most time improving his rear suspension with the Yamaha R6 shock. This mod required a spring change, and reforming the lower swingarm mount. In addition, Jeff had to recontour his Airbox to make room for the shocks reservoir. He was very happy with the end result, but I am of the opinion that he would do it differently should the need present itself.



    For my first mod, I purchased one of jefmtbkr's alternate shocks, the V-Star. This mod was very 'easy' and only required that I fabricate a shock extending bracket to match the TW stock length. The stock V-Star spring is softer than the stock TW spring (572lb/625lb) but for my gear load and 172lb body weight, the off-road ride was a pleasure as I like to travel under 25mph. The V-Star would be a great choice for someone wanting to lower the bike (rear).



    Many were inspired by rodrey's introduction of the Banshee shock (off rear of quad). For Rod, this seemed to be a slam dunk right out of the box (E-bay?). Others found the Banshee's stock spring to soft ( ) and sought stiffer replacements. Rod inspired me as well. When I moved to the higher tech Banshee body, I used my V-Star spring to firm up the ride. Given the Banshee is slightly longer than the stock TW (13 7/8 VS 13 3/16" ) our bikes leverage ratio kicked the seat height up a little over an inch. Since I am tall, this did not present a problem for me. I did have to fabricate a spacer as to make up the space between the short V-Star spring and the longer Banshee body (picture on page 2).



    Jonnyblaze, Brock and Catamount used another quad shock off a Blaster. This shock required minor modifications as the i.d. of the mounting holes did not match the bracket bolts of the TW. The tension of the Blaster spring worked out fine but the shocks greater length required a couple of simple component alterations (r. brake rod and passenger pegs) and as well raised seat height more than a couple of inches. Once again, those that used the Blaster shock were very happy with the ride.



    The four options mentioned above are reasonably well documented should you care to bounce around the links provided on page 4. Recently a new member (jtskir222) offered an exciting discovery. Seems, for the heavier or more aggressive, the stock TW spring can be used to replace the 'soft' (stock) Banshee spring. Again, in doing so, you will need to make a spacer to compensate for the difference in spring length. I will now move in this direction...
    Take care my Friend.........

  7. #6
    Moderator vuldub's Avatar
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    Awesome Job Gerry!

    Give yourself a missing link award!!
    Regards...Wes
    In the Stable: 73 Honda CT90,81 Honda CT110,81 Honda CT70,04 Yamaha TW200,07 Kawasaki Vulcan 1500

  8. #7
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    Last, but centainly not 'least'. Johanos provides some lost information on a mod that Mtbiker (Jeff) inspired. Thanks to both of you guys.



    2008 R6 rear shock mod



    In the early spring of 2008 I bought a rear shock off a 2008 Yamaha R6 with 200 miles on it, on ebay for $50.-.

    Resized to 89% (was 800 x 532) - Click image to enlarge

    The R6 shock is 40 mm shorter than the stock TW shock, eye to eye.

    After taking all the relevant measures and putting them together in an Autocad drawing, a bracket was made.



    Also a bushing and spacer for the upper part.

    A year later I made a new bracket, with a different angle, because the gas cylinder of the R6 shock would touch the carburetor when fully compressed.

    That can be seen in the next picture.



    The R6 shock was mounted in the TW, upside down from the way it was mounted in the R6.

    Resized to 89% (was 800 x 532) - Click image to enlarge

    Resized to 89% (was 800 x 532) - Click image to enlarge

    No changes were made to the TW frame, so that I could reverse to the stock shock.

    In the rear swing I drilled two extra holes for the brackets.

    Up to today, May 2011, I am happy with the R6 shock in there and I did some 50 000 km on all kind of terrain.
    acekool and TWilight like this.
    Take care my Friend.........

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