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Thread: The Dual Sprocket thread

  1. #21
    Senior Member ronnydog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgizmow View Post
    My ability to recall "exactly" has been somewhat compromised, likely a genetics thing as my Father would offten forget my name. In my opinion, should you be willing to pay a machinist, you should be able to get your 'secondary' primary sprocket indexed with as many coil pins (strong) as you want. I believe the stock shaft provides 6 'teeth'. Unless you are big guy, and plan to race, in my opinion, you should be able to make your 'sister' sprocket attachment "strong" enough.



    Nothing wrong with adding extra length of chain to get an even wider spread in your ratio options. There will be a few opinions on this to be sure. No matter if you boughht your bike new (me) or bought used. To me, the TW is a simple and inexpensive bike, parts like sprockets and chains are very affordable. Certainly, mis-matching components that have been subject to different degrees of wear would not represent the 'ideal', but in my opinion, nothing about the bike was made to represent the 'ideal'.



    Certainly, all of the above represent 'less' than optimum conditions (factory stock). I have mentioned before, my main concerns are (1) SAFETY and (2) convenience.



    I tried the wider spread (gearing) with the added section of chain. For me, this added enough time (not much) and energy to the ratio switch, as to suggest I would not be inclined to fuss with adding/subtracting chain sections to achieve my goals. You still need to loosen and re-tighten the axle to put in place the new section of chain and get it properly tensioned..



    In just dealing with the rear sprocket I am of the opinion that any 5 tooth spread is available. Here are some examples; should you be primarily a street commuter, but like trails, try a 45/50 rear combo. If you (like me) are into back country exploring, how about 50/55. Now in changing the front as well, offers an even greater spread.



    I am not selling anything, but am certainly pleased when someone gleens value from my ramblings. There are a few that continue to 'walk the planet' because they don't trust a flying machines. Study well, and use whats available to your benefit. Sounds good to me, Gerry







    Gerry,

    I have thought about this for a long time and wish we could make a two speed like the Honda 110's have. I had a 110 up to the time I bought a TW in 1994. The next swingarm (4" longer) I build will have two adjustable chain rollers under the swingarm to take up for the chain slack so I can run a 70 tooth and a 55 or 50 tooth. Any thought on this?



    Ronnydog

  2. #22
    Senior Member darnold87's Avatar
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    I kept mine a close ratio to avoid the necessity of adding / removing an extra section of chain...

    The chain roller / guide / tensioner would be neat. Seems like making it a spring-loaded design wouldn't be too difficult. You'd want to make sure the system would handle higher speeds.

    Here are a few pics from a google image search:





    ~Davey

    '89 TW200

    '94 Suzuki Sidekick

  3. #23
    Senior Member lizrdbrth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronnydog View Post
    Gerry,

    I have thought about this for a long time and wish we could make a two speed like the Honda 110's have. I had a 110 up to the time I bought a TW in 1994. The next swingarm (4" longer) I build will have two adjustable chain rollers under the swingarm to take up for the chain slack so I can run a 70 tooth and a 55 or 50 tooth. Any thought on this?



    Ronnydog


    Ronny,



    I have the HI/LO gearsets fron an ATC200E, but I haven't had time to see what's absolutely involved with adapting them to the output shaft on a TW yet. It looks doable, but will involve extensive modifications and may mean an output shaft that is out of line with the swingarm pivot, which will require a chain roller. It may also cause so many clearance issues that it's not worth doing. We'll see.



    I'll keep you posted, but this is way on the back burner for me right now.
    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

    Powdercoated '87 frame, extended swingarm, YZ fork legs, ATV tire, 14/55, XT350 tank, spliced quick-release seat, disc brake conversion, beeg headlight, beeger rack, Lizrdcooler, Lizrdventz and bunch of other stuff all covered in invisible ink.

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    I was lucky enough to find a fellow on the Honda Trailbike forum that was kind enough to forward me a couple of photos. This unit was offered some time ago, likely before the Honda duelrange trans came out. I remember seeing it advertised in the early 60's. With todays machining techniques I think this idea could be re-visited and made more viable. The fellow on the trailbike site indicated that the unit had problems. As I have had occasion to play with chain tensioners I would be inclined to say one would have to put together a pretty well thought out system to deal with the chain wrap we would likely encounter. Take a look at the 'Go-Matic' system. Gerry



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    Take care my Friend.........

  6. #25
    Senior Member peruano's Avatar
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    You can ramble anytime you want to Gizmow. If it gets too wild, we'll just ignore you, but to date it has not been intolerable and no one has lost their life.

    That must say something about you knowing what you are talking about - because you have told us a lot about your TW. Ride on and stay well. Tom
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  7. #26
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    Handy dandy chain length calculator:



    http://www.sprocketspecialists.com/S...ptimizer2.aspx



    I entered 14/50 for sprocket sizes and 428 for chain size, then dabbled with "Front To Rear Axle Distance" distance until the "Most Probable Number" came out to 122, our stock chain length. The result for "Front To Rear Axle Distance" came out to 22.3 inches. Now it is a simple matter to go in and change one parameter or another to find out what is possible. Say, for instance, I want a dual/dual sprocket setup with a 15/50 sprocket set for the highway and the lowest ratio I can get with a 13-tooth countershaft sprocket for offroad. I also want to keep the stock "Front To Rear Axle Distance" if possible.



    First, I substitute the 15-tooth countershaft sprocket and find out that there is little effect on overall fit--not enough difference to adversely affect chain link count or axle to axle distance.



    Next, I plug in the 13-tooth sprocket and my most probable chain length decreases to 121.



    Then I add rear wheel sprocket teeth to restore the most probable chain length to 122. I try 51 teeth and get 122 again.



    Therefore, I will choose 15/50 and 13/51 sets for my dual/dual sprockets. I wil have a 3.33 final drive for the highway and 3.92 final drive offroad, roughly the equivalent of running a 55 tooth wheel sprocket with the stock 14 tooth countershaft sprocket. I will be able to switch between sprocket sets without messing with additional chain sections or master links, and both sets will adjust to about the same place on the swingarm.



    Now lets suppose, being the anal jerk that I am, I want even better offroad final drive ratio. I measure the axle-to-axle distance on a broken-in 15/51 (no common factors = longer chain life) highway sprocket set with a new o-ring chain and decide to use 1.2 inches of adjustment slot for a longer wheelbase for better straight line stability on the highway. I plug all those numbers into the calculator and come up with a 128-link chain. Now I go back to the original 22.3-inch axle-to-axle distance, 13-tooth countershaft sprocket, and play around with wheel sprocket size until I hit 128 links. I can run a 13/63 sprocket set for a 4.85:1 final drive ratio, roughly equivalent to a 68-tooth rear wheel sprocket on the stock 14-tooth countershaft sprocket, without chamging chain length.



    I'm not saying these figures are perfect for TWs, just an illustration of how the calculator can be used. I suggest selecting your highway ratio, install the sprockets and new chain with the nearly axle as far back as possible, run them in, then loosen the adjusters and slide the axle all the way up and measure how much length you have with which to play. Seems to me a dual/dual setup could have a very wide final drive spread without changing chain length, and still use the same length chain, just by changing axle position in the swingarm.



    EDIT: Tdub is at the wrecker yard since I'm on call. If someone will measure the total distance between minimum and maximum adjustments I'll figure the maximum sprocket spread that will be possible without changing chain length for both single/dual and dual/dual configurations.

  8. #27
    Senior Member lizrdbrth's Avatar
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    1 1/4" total adjustment range. I'll get you an exact number in a few.



    Ok. It's kind of hard to tell whether I'm hitting the exact centerline of the output, but your 22" figure is just about right, axle fully forward. Figure 23 1/4" at max.



    I see where you're going with this. Assuming there's enough meat on the front combo to join them together, it's a good plan. Thanks.
    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

    Powdercoated '87 frame, extended swingarm, YZ fork legs, ATV tire, 14/55, XT350 tank, spliced quick-release seat, disc brake conversion, beeg headlight, beeger rack, Lizrdcooler, Lizrdventz and bunch of other stuff all covered in invisible ink.

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  9. #28
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    I think Gizmo already has dual/dual.



    15/50 at 23.25 inches is 126 links. 3.33:1 79.5mph at redline in 5th.

    13 at 22 inches with 126 links is 61. 4.69:1 56.5mph at redline in 5th.

  10. #29
    Senior Member lizrdbrth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty View Post
    I think Gizmo already has dual/dual.



    15/50 at 23.25 inches is 126 links. 3.33:1 79.5mph at redline in 5th.

    13 at 22 inches with 126 links is 61. 4.69:1 56.5mph at redline in 5th.




    Gizmo,



    If you run a 13 next to a 15 is there enough room between the sprocket shoulders to clear the chain pins when the chain is on the 13?
    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

    Powdercoated '87 frame, extended swingarm, YZ fork legs, ATV tire, 14/55, XT350 tank, spliced quick-release seat, disc brake conversion, beeg headlight, beeger rack, Lizrdcooler, Lizrdventz and bunch of other stuff all covered in invisible ink.

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  11. #30
    Senior Member Gerry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizrdbrth View Post
    Gizmo,



    If you run a 13 next to a 15 is there enough room between the sprocket shoulders to clear the chain pins when the chain is on the 13?


    No, the 13 sprocket (the one I purchased) does not even have the threaded bolt holes in it. It uses a clip to index it to the shaft.



    Now if you go with the "duel/duel" setup, I suspect you could get alot more variation by using a 'simple' idle-arm to deal with minimal chain slack. Gerry



    (Have you guys seen the additions that I made to my post [#24] back a couple of days? some pretty intriguing systems)
    Take care my Friend.........

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