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Thread: cdi baseline info - wires, waveforms, timings, substitution

  1. #11
    Junior Member PushingBoulders's Avatar
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    To build on my previous post, and to add to the discussion regarding CDI substitutions:

    IMG_0227.JPG

    What I used is GY6 CDI clone sold online as a "New Racing CDI". It is the AC version and for some reason it fit snugly in the TWs factory CDI holder. As you can see I used Weatherpack connectors to make a Yamaha to Weatherpack adapter harness in hopes that I could make a quick swappable CDI harness so I can Weatherpack and easily swap in and test other CDI units without having to damage my TWs harness. I can post a wiring diagram upon request if anyone wants to try this setup on their 87. I am timid about doing so without a direct request because as previously stated, I am still beta testing this setup myself. I don't want to be responsible if this ends up negatively affecting anyone's rig. If anyone else is willing to beta test as well and accept all liability, I have no qualms about detailing exactly how I went about swapping in this CDI (it's really straight forward, actually) I just don't want to offer this up as a magic bullet for the 87 just yet (as far as I've researched, no one else has documented a GY6 clone swap on an 87, could be wrong though).
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  2. #12
    Senior Member slowmod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PushingBoulders View Post
    To build on my previous post, and to add to the discussion regarding CDI substitutions:


    What I used is GY6 CDI clone sold online as a "New Racing CDI". It is the AC version and for some reason it fit snugly in the TWs factory CDI holder. As you can see I used Weatherpack connectors to make a Yamaha to Weatherpack adapter harness in hopes that I could make a quick swappable CDI harness so I can Weatherpack and easily swap in and test other CDI units without having to damage my TWs harness. I can post a wiring diagram upon request if anyone wants to try this setup on their 87. I am timid about doing so without a direct request because as previously stated, I am still beta testing this setup myself. I don't want to be responsible if this ends up negatively affecting anyone's rig. If anyone else is willing to beta test as well and accept all liability, I have no qualms about detailing exactly how I went about swapping in this CDI (it's really straight forward, actually) I just don't want to offer this up as a magic bullet for the 87 just yet (as far as I've researched, no one else has documented a GY6 clone swap on an 87, could be wrong though).
    -

    now we're getting somewhere. a confirmed sighting ! woo-hoo! i suspect there have been many swaps to cy6 cdi's if they work, and you are saying it does. it is such a comman engine people would try the swap. there is a ton of aftermarket cdi's for the cy6's, in different casings and different timing curves, or at least some without rev limiters, which is not an issue the tw anyway.

    i still have not heard back from buggymart, so maybe i will go ahead an get a cy6 cdi anyway.

    PB, can you be persuaded to do that led pulser timing test mentioned upthread? that would be great, even just a visual, it would cross reference a working cy6-on-a-87 forward to other years.

    in regards the pulser grounding, my '90 is not bonded to the frame, both green and white wires are only hooked to each end of the pulser coil. the main manual clearly shows that as well. i looked at the 2007 suplement and can't tell as they only show a wiring not circut diagram - the wires just enter a box.

    a unbonded pulser can be grounded to frame at either end no problem. i suppose if a crappy cdi breaks down it might bleed some hv source juice into the pulser, but really i doubt it. the bigger possible issue with substitution is if the new cdi draws too much (presents not enough resistance) from the coils, but again that's probably unlikely as the newer cdi's may just generally use less power and be "in range" anyway. a resistor could be added inline to limit the current flow somewhat but still let enough through so the cdi functions. i don't have values for ya.

    in regards timing issues, it seems to be somewhat more critical than i thought, there are good threads on here about that by people more knowledgable than myself. it ties into carberation/airbox/exhaust/altitute. once you are more operational i think you can monitor engine health somewhat by pulling and looking at your spark plug.

    anyway, thanks for the info. you got a part # for that cdi?

    i'd be interested in seeing your wiring diagram. just right "beta" across it. i think that's pretty well assumed on here anyway or should be!

    -
    Last edited by slowmod; 07-27-2014 at 10:49 PM.

  3. #13
    Junior Member PushingBoulders's Avatar
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    Slowmod, thanks for your thoughts on the matter. You are certainly right about the abundance of GY6 gear available. I, myself, would have thought that there would be plenty of write-ups regarding the GY6 CDI swap. It HAS to have been done before, but I have not stumbled across it documented in my many hasty and frustrated Google searches. As far as my assumption on the white side of the pulse coil being bonded to ground, I pulled a diagram from another thread on this site while working on the bike in the woods with one bar of 3G coverage. Here is a link to that thread and a repost of the image pgilles originally provided to the OP.

    No Spark

    TW200 Wiring Diagram with Labels.jpg

    worksite.jpg
    This was my CDI swap station.

    I will attempt the LED timing light test this weekend. Any info I can add to this discussion will just be paying forward for all the info I have been able to gather from the site as a lurker. I will post up a diagram this afternoon when I get home from work. In regards to the part number, I don't think there was one, but I'll check. It is one of the blue anodized boxes with a sticker that says "New Racing CDI" available on auction sites when searching AC GY6 CDI.
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  5. #14
    Senior Member slowmod's Avatar
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    hey PB that's a hardcore workstation, at least i am inside with a bench. looks like nice country tho (anything with trees!).

    i hear you on paying it forward/returning the favour, i also have gotten tons of help and info off this forum, and others when i was rebuilding my truck. plus it's fun.

    that wiring diagram is off a newer bike, '97 or '07 forward, i'm a little unclear on the exact wiring/year changes. anyway you can tell by the yellow wire and the 3phase 12v stators.

    regarding the pulser grounding, the diagram you posted indicates that the white is bonded _inside the original cdi, so the pulser polarity _could be easily flipped if needed (unlike if it was bonded inside the sidecover, ie the red wire/source coil in that diagram and generally).

    your new cdi probably only has one wire in for pulser so you would have to ground the other end anyway?

    white=ground, and green =plus should be giving the pretty blue cdi a trigger point of around 2-0 deg btdc, and an led flash of ~6deg btdc.

    so it appears that the cy6 looks for a trigger around there. but it could be easily 5-10 deg "off" , and start/run ok in nice warm weather, so it's still important to figure out the base timing for the cy6. if anyone has a cy6 to test....

    if you are also able to do a spark timing test at the cam pulley hole, we'll know how much that cdi advances from trigger at different rpm's.

    at crank/idle it should be, i have heard, 10 deg btc, although the "fire" marks on the flywheel are 5-8 deg btc i think.

    -
    Last edited by slowmod; 07-28-2014 at 11:15 AM.
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  6. #15
    Junior Member PushingBoulders's Avatar
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    UPDATE ON THE GY6 "New Racing CDI":

    After hooking up a digital timing light, it appears that at idle, the unit runs base timing at around 15 degrees BTDC. The main agenda of today was to try to see what, if any, advance curve the cheap CDI has. Survey says? ...................... NONE. I had my wife rev the bike up while I watched the timing marks with my light and the timing never advanced past 15 degrees. I was afraid of that. My friend rode it and said that the bike felt a bit "flat" to him, even being a 200cc. Having no advance curve would explain that. I had read that some of the cheap CDI boxes had no timing advance, even when advertised as having one. So, although the bike starts great, idles great, and gets me around, I am not getting the most out of the bike. I can say that the blue anodized "New Racing CDI" is probably off the table. I will search more reputable stateside vendors who may have a "higher-end" $25-$50 CDI that they can verify has an actual timing advance.

    edit: found this online at buggypartsnw.com
    "The stock spark timing on most GY6 125cc and 150cc vehicles is ~12° before TDC. This CDI advances the base timign to 15° before TDC and allows you to adjust the timing between 15° and 20° before TDC. Simply turn the dial on the face of the CDI to make the adjustments."

    It appears that the GY6 runs base at 12 degrees and the "racing cdi's" bump it to 15. This site sells an adjustable unit that bumps to 20 degrees at 3000+RPM, but that is still ~10 degrees shy of what we need to see at full timing advance.
    Last edited by PushingBoulders; 07-28-2014 at 04:07 PM.
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  7. #16
    Senior Member slowmod's Avatar
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    nice.

    so, no built in advance on the stock cy6. a friend of mine had suspected that.
    still, it runs not bad, a great back-up cdi to have in one's kit, to get out of the woods with if nothing else.

    -

    apparently tho, there are other cy6 units that do advance -though perhaps more than we want - the buggymart tech emailed me this a couple weeks ago in regards to their cdi's: (i emailed again today but haven't heard back).

    CDI Power:
    Minimum 16vAC for stable spark. Typical 80v - 140vAC.
    I don't know of an upper limit to the power voltage for the CDI, but I assume it is more than 250v.

    Timing
    I haven't had the opportunity to bench test the CDI timing myself. But according to a GY6 community veteran the AC CDI has 22 degrees advance at 1500 to 2300 rpm. Then it advances rapidly until 52 degrees at 3200 rpm. There is no rev limiter - our 150cc engines routinely see 10k - 11k RPM.

    If the GY6 CDI isn't directly compatible, we have access to a number of CDIs for other models that can potentially be used. We also have the 12v DC version of this CDI, trigger specs are the same but I'm unsure of the timing characteristics.


    -


    apparently delayed timing can cause partial, and late, ignition, resulting in less power but also burnt valves and detonation in the exhaust system.
    the higher the revs/ the more fuel being delivered at those higher revs, the more this would be an issue i would think.

    the fixed 15 deg might be pretty close to stock tw spark timing at around 2000rpm?


    tw_duraspark_web.JPG
    i hooked up a duraspark cdi out of an early '80's ford ranger to my tw. it had no advance (the stock application is all mech and vac advance). the bike would start with dificulty, and idle low, but would not spin any faster no way, as it was firing @ the pulser signal, on or real near tdc.

    tw_timing_dura_web.JPG
    i also tried a suzuki rm80 cdi i bought blind for $25, so who knows if it was good. but some of those rm80's and such apparently take their trigger off the source coil - and in this case that's how they were firing (4x). the 45/90 timing lines are kinda wonky, early version.

    congratulations, pushingboulders, you have the first documented working substitute tw cdi swap! you win... a (sortof) working tw!

    sortof...

    -
    Last edited by slowmod; 07-28-2014 at 08:50 PM.

  8. #17
    Junior Member PushingBoulders's Avatar
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    Slowmod, I actually read that thread about the Duraspark when the guy that gave me this TW was having problems. It was a cool idea. I have used duraspark in the past to rid older Ford small blocks of their points ignition systems. Cheap and easy. But, like you discovered, all timing advance is either vacuum or centrifugally accomplished within the dizzy. At this point, I am seriously debating just biting the bullet on a factory CDI unit. But for what it's worth, I still see the GY6 as a cheap, viable tool in diagnosing tricky CDI issues on our TWs. It is like having a "known-good" component you can swap in. Even if the timing curve doesn't move, at 15 degrees, the bike will fire. If nothing else, if you are riding an older TW with the original cdi, you could keep it in your kit as something that will get you off the trail if your CDI bites the dust. So that being said, here is how I hooked mine up.

    twcdi.png

  9. #18
    Senior Member slowmod's Avatar
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    i am this close to building a camshaft-driven dizzy to mount where the cover is.

  10. #19
    Senior Member frog13's Avatar
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    slowmod and PB....are you my brother in disguise !....... LOL

  11. #20
    Senior Member slowmod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frog13 View Post
    slowmod and PB....are you my brother in disguise !....... LOL
    hey, it's possible i suppose, my folks did a lot of traveling in the states, back in the day. half brothers anyway...

    -

    emboldened by pushingboulder's success i've got a fixed-timing cdi on order, should get it by the end of the week. supposedly it cross-references to the tw to some degree. (not a timing joke).

    it should get me going, but i can't see how fixed timing will be satisfactory for much time or distance.

    tw_subarudizzy1_web.jpg
    i pulled a dizzy from an early 90's subaru loyale, which interestingly has an optical sensor.

    so the idea is to replace the tw cam-sprocket bolt with a longer bolt, w/nut-as-bolthead, cut off the real bolthead - there's the protruding shaft. flat plate with a shaft seal replaces the camsprocket-cover.

    onto all that goes the optic sensor and a new one-hole disk onto the shaft. or points, or a mag/pickup...

    at the very least i can adjust the fixed timing (on the go?) and eventually add in a centrifical advance on the disc. the optic interests me because it's so lightweight. needs power (5v? 12v?). could easily switch back to stock pulser for dead battery situations.

    the deluxe version, i'm sure, will have integrated full-time led timing lights firing on the sprocket, visible thru the clear viewing panel. by 2018 for sure.

    -
    Last edited by slowmod; 08-06-2014 at 12:11 AM.
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