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Thread: Engine stalls, terrible noise from the inside

  1. #51
    Member kltrkmpf's Avatar
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    another mark for your review AGman, though I will flip the manual and look for the correct way to do it too!

    while this mark at this position, the top timing gear is at that position


  2. #52
    Senior Member AGman's Avatar
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    The timing at this stage is not an issue, it just makes it easier to take the cam out when there are no valve springs putting pressure on the cam. You can now remove the timing chain tensioner and top timing gear (loosen the bolt on the gear first) and get to the bearing & cam.
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  3. #53
    Member kltrkmpf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred View Post
    Now that the spark plug is out is should be easy to get to top dead center by turning a socket or wrench on either the bolt holding cam gear, or better yet the similar bolt on end of crank which is accessible under ~6cm plastic plug on lower left side engine cover ( where chain dissapers in engine) I unscrew the plug counterclockwise using a big flat washer, plug is plastic and a little fragile.
    The big o-ring at cylinder base might be ordered through Boats.net or Stadium Yamaha .com at good prices, do not know r.e. international shipping though.
    There are threads here on forum detailing 225 cylinder and piston installation that could explain much better than I, but I think it basically requires enlarging up the opening on engine cases where cylinder base fits. Might be a good challenge on your first engine re-build, read the threads and decide for yourself once you see how much damage there is to piston and cylinder. Time to pull the cylinder head and hopefully see what is wrong. Leave engine in frame for now.
    This all goes a little easier if you can support bike vertically on a crate or other bike stand rather than leaning on side stand. Not mandatory, just easier when it comes time to put it all together.

    Time for others with more experience to add to my meager knowledge before I give bad advice.

    EDIT: Thanks AGman, you beat me to giving better description of getting to Top Dead Center.
    Thanks again Fred!!

    I'll turn the bolt holding the cam gear with a socket, and put my finter on the plug hole to feel the compression, as shown in BDub's video~ going to do that now! and thanks for the parts shop recomendations as well as the 225 bit, guess i'll forget about the 225 upgrade then, if it involves modifiying the bottom case.

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  5. #54
    Senior Member AGman's Avatar
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    I think the cam bearing is OK, with the amount of metal in the filter you would already see rubbish in and around that timing chain housing I'd say...
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  6. #55
    Member kltrkmpf's Avatar
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    the cylinder came off, but i didn't see what i'm expecting to see, no shattered piston, not even broken rings, no nasty scratches on the cylinder wall either, at least there isn't any visible to me ... so it's actually not the cylinder?

    now i'm confused, i really thought i would see a mess, but there is no mess, seems like the mess is at the bottom case then?

    Not sure if these are normal:
    1. Piston head has lots of play left and right
    2. The piston rings are really loose but none is broken, all intact and are in their groves
    3. Piston shaft wiggles a little bit but don't seems to me too much of play but i'm not experience enough to tell

    Bottom of the engine top


    Top off


    Cylinder off, gear side diagonal top of the piston


    brake pedal side diagonal top of the piston


    brake pedal side, side view of the piston


    All sides of the cylinder walls










    Last edited by kltrkmpf; 01-30-2016 at 02:40 AM.

  7. #56
    Senior Member RockyTFS's Avatar
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    Did you take a magnet to the metal shavings? From the looks of them and the fact that it was using oil I was pretty sure it was the piston. Now the next most likely thing is the cam. If those shavings are steel and stick to the magnet that becomes very likely. The least likely is the bottom end and gears, but what I said earlier about contamination throughout the engine still holds true, especially if the shavings are steel. It's pretty much like pouring a couple tablespoons of fine sand in the oil and running it down the highway at 60 until it seizes.
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  8. #57
    Senior Member fishguy's Avatar
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    "Piston head has lots of play left and right." - I think those scrapes and nicks on the top edge of the piston show it has been flopping around.

    "
    The piston rings are really loose but none is broken, all intact and are in their groves." - Loose? They should not wiggle up and down in their groves. Plus, if you do a top end rebuild, make sure the new ring's open ends are "indexed" (not lined up) properly when installed.

    "
    Piston shaft wiggles . . ." - You mean the rod bearing in the piston? If so, it should not wiggle at all. I would do a top end re-build now that you have it apart.

  9. #58
    Senior Member Fred's Avatar
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    I don't recall if we asked how many miles are on the bike but the piston and cylinder walls do look scuffed up and worn, but not obviously indicating source the catastrophic noises. When the oil was drained was there much metal debris like what was shown on the oil filter? Was screen at the oil drain also full of metal debris and did you note if it seems like aluminum or steel? We are trying to diagnose from afar since there was not obvious source of problem looking at piston and cylinder walls.
    From what we see do others think honing cylinder and a stock piston will be good once bike gets put back together or should it get cylinder bored to accept an oversize piston? I am no expert by any means.Can a fingernail feel the visible scratches on cylinder walls? Was hoping to see obvious damage and cause of engine failure.
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  10. #59
    Senior Member plumbstraight's Avatar
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    You mentioned some slack in the piston in the cylinder. There has to be a little bit or it would seize up, not a lot, but some. It appears to me that you need to do a complete teardown. What a shame. I am wondering if the oil pump failed.
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  11. #60
    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    There will be some play side to side on the piston – the rings are designed to take most of that up – but it will be “negligible”, bordering on barely noticeable. You’re the guy on the scene here, so you’re the one making a judgement call on that aspect – but, as you have it apart, best look at a re-bore, depends on how simple that is over there.

    The thing you really need to pay attention to, is the vertical play. Grab hold of the piston, and lift it directly up and down.

    It should be 100% rock solid.

    “If” there’s the slightest movement, try to establish whether this play is coming from the piston itself, or from below the piston. Try wiggling the piston from side to side, if there’s any play there at all then your small end needs replacing. Easy job, and minimal cost.

    If there is any play in the rod below the piston, then your crank is toast – which is slightly more involved ………
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